Existing Users: Because of an update to the forum software you will need to reset your password. Please use the "Forgot?" link on the sign in form to do so. If that doesn't work, send me an email at feedback@forzaminardi.com and I'll sort you out!

Cheating, anyone?

Hello, lookie what we have here. Will certainly be big if the FIA pursues and wins it. :o

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=24233





[Edited on 25/4/2005 by MinardiP1]

Comments

  • Copy-paste the article dude.
  • all fixed, click it now. :)
  • Interesting !!!!!!

    I wonder if the FIA would appeal if it were a non GO-9 team (i.e. TOIT) !!!!!:spank:
  • interesting.
  • So how would this cheating work:

    say the BAR weighs 590Kg illegal, and a legal F1 weighs 600Kg.

    Both have 100Kg tanks, but the BAR has 10Kg internal reservoir.

    At the start and 1st stop both cars run identical strategies with partially filled tanks. The BAR runs 10Kg lighter

    At the second stop the BAR crew puts in an extra 10Kg of fuel which is then pumped into the hitherto empty reservoir. In the third stint the two cars are running at the same weight.

    In parc ferme, the BAR carries 10KG extra fuel and weighs the same as the other car (all things being equal)... Until it is drained by the stewards.

    Only as the BAR came into its pitstops with nearly empty tanks would it actually be running illegally light in the race, and with some careful management that could be eliminated.

    Still the car is running 10Kg lighter than the equivalent minimally legal weight car for the first two thirds of the race.

    So I think BAR could well have being cheating...

    Could this be detected by longer 3rd pitstops than other cars stopping on the same lap?
    Does the BAR consistently do its third pitstop late, which would maximise their advantage?

    During first session qualifying the BAR would be also running 10KG light no doubt, unless they are weighed in parc ferme after each qualifying session.

    BARstards!

    :spank:
  • Rules say the car has to weigh 605kg after qualifying. Remember they probably run at least 50kg of fuel in qualifying so like you said, they're doing qualifying 10kg lighter than they should be.
  • All this is alleged by the way...

    Brooksey, if they qualified underweight, it would have been checked by the stewards. Remember Wilson had his car weighed after qualifying. So they aren't doing anything illegal in qualifying.

    If they are underweight, it will be at the end of the first stint (for maybe 2 laps) when the car has less than 10kg's of fuel, at the end of the second stint (when they have less than 10kg worth of fuel). quite clearly they aren't underweight at the completion of the race, otherwise it would have been an easy decision for the stewards.

    So, if the crux of it is they are underweight by less than 10kg for less than 4 laps, then it would hardly warrant throwing them out of the series.

    BAR were able to prove to the stewards that thhey were over 600kg's for the entirety of the race.

    Toyota and the industrial espionage case should illustrate the FIA's stance with manufacturers.

    [Edited on 28/4/2005 by JuniorMin]
  • JuniorMin: You are right that the car would probably only have illigeal weight for 4 laps, but the car will have a great advantage for 2/3rds of the race. If the last pitstop comes late the advantage is even bigger.

    Lets assume two cars have fuel for 20 laps. One with a legel weight, and another with fuel as ballast. The car using fuel as ballast would have a 10kg advantage for every one of 20 laps compared to the legal car - EVEN in the laps where it's weight is above 600 kg.

    Or think of two cars, one fueled for 20 laps and the other for 22 laps. If they have the same weight it's clear that the illigeal approach will give you a great advantage compared to your rivals.

    If BAR has done this on purpose, then they will deserve race bans for sure.
  • I think I see what people are saying...

    The way I see it is that the 10Kg ballast tank gives the team no great advantage at the start of the race since all teams will have the same total weight. Then we look at midrace, after refueling. BAR's car isn't exactly going to be weighed midrace, so they empty the ballast, and take a normal fuel load. So between BAR and the other teams, with the same amount of fuel, BAR will weigh 10Kg less for those 20'ish laps.

    Essentially, let's say every single car takes on 80Kg of fuel (random number, I don't know how much they take). The BAR will weigh 670Kg and the rest will weigh 680. Later, the BAR will weigh 660, and the rest will weigh 670.

    BAR will always have less weight than the other cars using a similar pit strategy. (This is all if it is true). On the second pitstop, the tank is refilled, so that the car weighs the amount needed at the end of the race.

    There's also the possibility of some crazy system I'm not aware of, that requires extra fuel for it to work, but fuel that will never be burned. Consider it like needing water for a pump to be 'Primed' at all times. You don't want the pump to run dry, so you have to put extra water in to make sure the level doesn't run dry, as the pump will fail.

    Perhaps in this instance they have a system that will fail at low fuel levels, so they put an extra 10Kg of fuel in so that they don't run dry, but lower the ballast by 10Kg to maintain total car weight, because that 10Kg is gonna stay in the tank (used to keep something primed, not used as actual fuel). Thus, if you drain all systems of fuel, you are losing the 10Kg that was never going to be used as fuel exactly.

    Ravlen
  • I don't know what the BAR would get for this, but I am sure, the FIA won't ban them, because Berine has a contract with the FOCA (i think) where he was guarantee that there would be 20 cars on the starting grid, and witout BAR this is not possible. Maybe they have to pay some money, but thats all...

    ATi the fortune-teller
  • Simple solution:

    Let Minardi have 2 more cars on track(PS04B).
    Let Nissany drive one.
    He can take the other team's cars out so that the Minardi's can have podium !!!!:P :hehe:

    [Edited on 28/4/2005 by Minardus]
  • excellent idea :hehe:

    and we should give the 2nd car to Zloblin with a bottle of vodka
  • The car using fuel as ballast would have a 10kg advantage for every one of 20 laps compared to the legal car - EVEN in the laps where it's weight is above 600 kg.

    If BAR has done this on purpose, then they will deserve race bans for sure.
    However, BAR were able to show the Stewards how the car was above 600kg for the entirety of the race, only being underweight after the warm down lap (which may have been what raised the suspicion of the stewards). The stewards aren't stupid, they know the rules, as do BAR.

    This could end up being the crystalisation of the whole political battle.
  • If the BAR is not illegal, it is certainly covertly stretching a poorly drafted rule. Max must believe that something in the wording will allow him a comeback or the FIA would not be launching their action. Otherwise, every team will be rebuilding their fuel tanks before barcelona if they are not already doing the same. Surely minimum weights are central to a racing formula and the rules pertaining to them should be clear and watertight.

    So either BAR are cheating or Mosley is incompetent.

    or both.
  • I meant that they are still coming in over 605kg after qualifying - only instead of being say 660kg they're only 650kg.
  • Here it is in Black & white...

    FIA technical regulations (I've extracted the relevent parts)

    Definitions:
    1.1 Formula One Car :
    An automobile designed solely for speed races on circuits or closed courses.
    1.8 Event :
    An event shall consist of official practice and the race.
    1.9 Weight :
    Is the weight of the car with the driver, wearing his complete racing apparel, at all times during the event.
    1.10 Racing weight :
    Is the weight of the car in running order with the driver aboard and all fuel tanks full.

    ARTICLE 4 : WEIGHT
    4.1 Minimum weight :
    The weight of the car must not be less than 605 kg during the
    qualifying practice session and no less than 600 kg at all other
    times during the Event.
    4.2 Ballast :
    Ballast can be used provided it is secured in such a way that tools are required for its removal. It must be possible to fix seals if deemed necessary by the FIA technical delegate.
    4.3 Adding during the race :
    With the exception of fuel and compressed gases, no substance may be added to the car during the race. If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part.
    ---end---

    It seems the FIA do have a point. I think they will argue the following;

    1. The definition of 'car' is: 1.1 Formula One Car :
    An automobile designed solely for speed races on circuits or closed courses.

    2. The fluid is not specified as part of the 'car' in terms of weight. Only 'Racing weight' inlcudes fuel. 'Weight' would therefore be dry weight.

    3. Article 4 states that the 'car' cannot be less than 600kg at any time during the event.

    4. The weight is defined as the weight of the car plus the driver wearing his full apparel. (as opposed to 'racing weight')

    Therefore BAR had an illegal car.

    In addition, the FIA could also argue that; if BAR had drained the fluids of the car during offical practice (in the pits) the car would have been illegal as it was under 600kg during the 'event'.



    [Edited on 29/4/2005 by TasM]
  • Here it is in Black & white...

    ARTICLE 4 : WEIGHT
    4.1 Minimum weight :
    The weight of the car must not be less than 605 kg during the
    qualifying practice session and no less than 600 kg at all other
    times during the Event.
    4.2 Ballast :
    Ballast can be used provided it is secured in such a way that tools are required for its removal. It must be possible to fix seals if deemed necessary by the FIA technical delegate.
    4.3 Adding during the race :
    With the exception of fuel and compressed gases, no substance may be added to the car during the race. If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part.
    ---end---

    It seems the FIA do have a point. I think they will argue the following;

    1. The definition of 'car' is: 1.1 Formula One Car :
    An automobile designed solely for speed races on circuits or closed courses.

    2. The fluid is not specified as part of the 'car' in terms of weight. Only 'Racing weight' inlcudes fuel. 'Weight' would therefore be dry weight.

    3. Article 4 states that the 'car' cannot be less than 600kg at any time during the event.

    4. The weight is defined as the weight of the car plus the driver wearing his full apparel. (as opposed to 'racing weight')

    Therefore BAR had an illegal car.

    In addition, the FIA could also argue that; if BAR had drained the fluids of the car during offical practice (in the pits) the car would have been illegal as it was under 600kg during the 'event'.

    [Edited on 29/4/2005 by TasM]
    TasM, oyur last point about draining the car during practice is possibly the most stupid comment I have ever read. It's like saying if a car has a blowout and loses a tyre it is illegal. Quite clearly, if the car is in bits on the ground or the mechanics are working on it then sanity would prevail.

    Im interested in the "If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part." Wet tyres are heavier than slicks, should this have been an issue?

    Tas, racing weight is rarely achieved because it involves full tanks. There is nothing in your rules that precludes fuel being used as ballast though is there?
  • You are right about the last part of my post, it is silly. I had some initial notes scattrered around on the subject and that was not meant to be in the post. :spank:

    But what about my main point? If BAR's car weighs less than 600kg in a dry state is it illegal? The definition of a formula 1 car, plus the distiction between racing weight and weight. Fuel is only explicitly mentioned in racing weight. Does that mean the definition of 'weight' means dry-weight of the 'car'. If so the 'car' IS illegal.
  • When you say "dry", do you mean with no liquid ballast?
  • Yes. In the weight definitions it states that 'Ballast can be used provided it is secured in such a way that tools are required for its removal. It must be possible to fix seals if deemed necessary by the FIA technical delegate.'

    My question is, does that imply that fuel cannot be considered part of the car because it is not ballast as per the FIA definition?
  • quite clearly there is some issue with the rules. How can you rule with any authority the weight of a vehicle during a race without weighing it?

    A driver is losing weight, oil is being used, petrol is being used, tyres are losing rubber... I'm sure someone in the know could list another half dozen reasons the weight could diminsh. They need to re-write the rule so that the car itself has a set weight before fuel, oil and driver are in the car at qualifying, and if parc ferme not used, before the race.

    [Edited on 29/4/2005 by JuniorMin]
  • Yes. In the weight definitions it states that 'Ballast can be used provided it is secured in such a way that tools are required for its removal. It must be possible to fix seals if deemed necessary by the FIA technical delegate.'

    My question is, does that imply that fuel cannot be considered part of the car because it is not ballast as per the FIA definition?
    Hang on... not ballast as per the FIA definition? We're supposedly talking about a fixed bladder inside the fuel tank, which would certainly require tools for removal by stewards... Really, tell the rider to drink a litre of water before the weighin and your car "weight" just gained a kilogram.

    The rules need to be rewritten.

    [Edited on 29/4/2005 by JuniorMin]
  • If the BAR is not illegal, it is certainly covertly stretching a poorly drafted rule. Max must believe that something in the wording will allow him a comeback or the FIA would not be launching their action. Otherwise, every team will be rebuilding their fuel tanks before barcelona if they are not already doing the same. Surely minimum weights are central to a racing formula and the rules pertaining to them should be clear and watertight.

    So either BAR are cheating or Mosley is incompetent.

    or both.
    Hrm, poorly phrased rules? Remember this one? "Any car that doesn't finish a race may change engine without grid penalty.". Yeah, no problems there either.

    Ravlen
  • Really, tell the rider to drink a litre of water before the weighin and your car "weight" just gained a kilogram.
    I don't think the drivers are allowed to drink anything before they are weighed (except from their waterflask in the car). If they gain weight by drinking from their waterflask in the car, then the car itself will weigh less. The sum of the car and its driver will be the same.
  • From Grandprix.com:
    FIA asks for BAR exclusion
    The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.
Sign In or Register to comment.