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Williams vs BMW Sauber

I'm sorry to say it but I think BMW Sauber will have the measure of Williams next year. I don't know why Williams have fallen so far in 5 years but their willinginess to put the blame at BMW's door is a big mistake. No matter what has been said in the media the BMW engine was no where near as bad as Williams has claimed.
When you compare chassis/tyre combination, drivers and engine package, Williams have an advantage only in the engine. They've hired an untried designer from BAR's composite division, combined with a poor aero man in Bigois and one senses impending disaster.
Rosberg's appointment already looks like a mistake. His testing times in the car look unimpressive, lets face it a driver who's quick is quick from day 1. I can understand Webber's desire to have a team mate that he can dominate but if one wants to find new talent you have to look towards F3.
Sauber's advantage is stability and the infusion of a larger budget which should see them move up the grid.

Comments

  • Frank Wiliams does appear more and more like he has run a little beyond his time in keeping abreast of the competition. However, I don't know to what extent his experience and hard-mindedness allows or encourages the younger guns in his team and the drivers to give their best.

    Re Rosberg, "quick from day 1" is a fair test, but racecraft, learning curve, consistency and temperament will be important too. A ittle too early to judge perhaps?

    No predictions here at a ll re R Junior, but future champions, like offspring, don't always fit the past mould, do they?

    Spin

    [Edited on 10/12/2005 by Dr_Spin]
  • you know my feelings, so i'll leave it at that.
  • I can understand Webber's desire to have a team mate that he can dominate
    you must be bored. :rolleyes:

  • P1, you don't really believe that webber had a good season this year? Outperformed by Heidfeld. He now has to try and rebuild his reputation. Rosberg will be no competition for Webber. Spins comment about race craft is accepted but one needs basic speed first which Rocberg lacks.
    No Williams will be struggling badly next year. The only question is who they chose to blame for their woes.
  • Tough times for Frank and Patrick. They've made some poor appointments over the past five years. Never write them off ...

    Watching the 2005 DVD, Webbo had a shocker - that 'pass' on Schumi in Turkey summing it up.
  • P1, you don't really believe that webber had a good season this year? Outperformed by Heidfeld. He now has to try and rebuild his reputation. Rosberg will be no competition for Webber. Spins comment about race craft is accepted but one needs basic speed first which Rocberg lacks.
    No Williams will be struggling badly next year. The only question is who they chose to blame for their woes.
    No, he didn't have a good year by his expectations, nor Williams' standards, but he qualified well and got more out of the car than it was really willing to give up more than once.

    I don't think he has to 'rebuild his reputation' by any means. It's not like he was Takuma Sato up against Jenson Button - now THAT result would require rebuilding a reputation.

    Nor would it be Webber's desire to be forced to endure another also-ran as a teammate. He would have wanted, and expected, Jenson Button.
  • Looks like the Cossie V8 is rocking
    From Autosport-

    Cosworth breaks 20,000rpm barrier

    December 10th 2005, 14:21 GMT

    Northampton-based engine builder Cosworth has an enviable record of success with V8 engines, and it claims to have made further history by becoming the first manufacturer to have broken the 20,000rpm limit on track.

    According to a report in this week's Autosport, Cosworth ran its new CA-2006 V8 engine to a new rev record during testing with Williams at the recent Barcelona test - and it has now set its sights on reaching 21,000rpm before the end of next season.

    Although it is not thought that Cosworth's engine will use the 20,000rpm level as a regular feature during 2006, the company believe that such a benchmark was needed for it to be competitive.

    Alex Hitzinger, Cosworth's head of F1 development, said: "We had to be prepared to move the benchmark again in 2006 and 20,000rpm was our target.

    "We don't plan to run the engine to 20,000rpm as a matter of course, but it will be available to us."

    The history-making rev record for Cosworth is indicative of the company's desire to make a success of its partnership with Williams - and Hitzinger is refusing to rule out the chances of victories.

    "Williams can win with us and we would like them to," he explained. "We haven't been in such a strong position with a team since we were with Benetton in 1994." Cosworth's DFV V8 engine is the most successful in the sport's history, having taken a total of 155 Grands Prix victories.
  • 'Outperformed by Heidfeld' ... my ass! Here are some facts:

    2005 Qualifying
    Melbourne: Webber 3rd Heidfeld 7th
    Sepang: Webber 4th Heidfeld: 10th
    Sakhir: Webber 5th Heidfeld: 4th
    Imola: Webber 4th Heidfeld: 8th
    Barcelona: Webber 2nd Heidfeld: 17th
    Monaco: Webber 3rd Heidfeld: 6th
    Nurburgring: Heidfeld: 1st Webber 3rd
    Montreal: Webber 14th Heidfeld: 13th
    Indianapolis: Webber 9th Heidfeld: 15th
    Magny: Webber 12th Heidfeld: 14th
    Silverstone: Webber 11th Heidfeld: 14th
    Hockenheim: Webber 6th Heidfeld: 7th
    Hungary: Webber 16th Heidfeld : 12th
    Turkey: Webber; 7th Heidfeld: 6th

    ... and with Heidfelds good finishes in Sepang and Monaco and Nurburgring (ie; >Webber) then you'd be worried if he couldn't out qualify his team mate on the following races. Hungary Webber qualifies from behind Heidfeld 11th vs 19th, and in Turkey ... webber encounters sato on his qualifying lap.

    excuses aside; 9:5 is the ratio ... who is the fastest driver? Clearly, it is Webber.
  • A beginners question:

    How many points are there to be won in qualifying??
  • Sorry did I forget the obvious; Webber got more points in the season.

    Like Cela_trams said, Heidfeld is lucky. He is smooth, experienced, and does not take great risk. ..and I suspect once he had the BMW contract saw no point to risk more damage to his reputation.

    I can only see a few windows in the year to observe heidfeld performing greater than Webber (such as monaco), generally the opposite was the case.

    As for BMW since they are building on the experience and design of Sauber and have to acquire their own corporate F1 chassis experience I think it will be a few seasons before they can compete with the top teams. Williams on the other hand know what to do, they only have to fix a few bugs. Next year both the engines and tyres are big question marks, but the rule changes perhaps favour Bridgestone.
  • You'd build a team around Webber, but not Heidfeld.

    'nuf said.
  • Rosberg will be no competition for Webber. Spins comment about race craft is accepted but one needs basic speed first which Rocberg lacks.
    It's lose/lose for Webber this year, as it's been every year, probably the reason he still struggles to command respect amongst some of the sport's followers.

    He dominated Yoong, he dominated Pizzonia, he dominated Wilson, he dominated Klien ....... he was at least more consistent than Heidfeld - who I recall some of the forum tipped to edge Webber handsomely.

    Now he's got another unknown quantity. If he kills Rosberg, it's expected as NR is a rookie. If he edges Rosberg, Webber's underperforming (again). If Rosberg is the second coming of Senna, it wont be accepted for several years how good Rosberg really is (like Kimi) and Webber risks being discarded no matter how good a job he's doing........ because everyone expects him to wipe the floor with Rosberg.

    We'll be having the same conversation in 12 months because, short of Mark Webber winning races next year in a car 95% of this forum thinks will suck, he's still going to remain unproven and unworthy of respect in people like Petrol's eyes. :spank:

    FW must really rate Rosberg because he's absolutely killing Webber's reputation and, potentially, motivation with the teammates he's hoisting upon him. :(
  • Max Torq how many races did Heidfeld drive for Williams? Who was the Higher driver in the Championship before he got injured.
    Qualifying stands for nothing if you consistently give away positions at the start, don't you agree?
  • After Hungoring the difference between the two was 4 points, the difference equal to the position change in Monaco, due to neither strategy or speed. Heidfeld got some good results where the track suited the car otherwise he was nowhere. So what if you give away places when you qualify 11th, no one notices, and your already out of contention (unless you're in a Mclaren, that is)... anyway LC is a BMW issue and one that Sauber will inherit.
  • I've always rated Webber. The williams car was a bit of a duffer last year, to be honest, after Nurburgring. Looking carefully, Webber might have been able to win that race- he was outquaified by Heidfeld, but on a two-stopper to Heidfeld's three.

    Getting nerfed at the first corner put paid to that though.

    Webber would also have finished 2nd in Monaco had Alonso not been so slow as to be slower than Heidfeld on a heavy fuel load.

    Heidfeld is, of course, another pretty damn good driver. 2006 should see a better performance from Williams, although I think they'll struggle to beat the likes of Toyota and Honda...

  • you must be bored. :rolleyes:
    Agreed.

    The comment about Webber wanting to have a team mate that he can easily dominate is a load of Red Bull, but expected from Petrol. You just have to look at Webber's own comments. He has stressed the need for a strong team mate many times and really wanted to race with Button. He fought very hard not to have a half assed Pizzonia as a team mate because he was too weak.


    [Edited on 13/12/2005 by TasM]
  • Looking atthe Williams setup. Webber has got absolutely no imput as to whom he gets as a teammate. That seems to be the flaw with the Williams outfit at present. Too many operational errors.
    I also note that Webber seemd to be the only driver making poor starts. Or do you think BMW was singling him out for the launch control problem?
  • [/quote]I also note that Webber seemd to be the only driver making poor starts. Or do you think BMW was singling him out for the launch control problem?
    [/quote]
    If you qualify higher up the grid (Webber) you will be in direct competition with the better teams who have good launch systems.

    If you qualify further back (Heidfeld) you are likely to be up against lesser teams who may not have as good launch control.

  • And if you qualify on pole, you can in fact only lose places. The higher you qualify, the harder it will be to maintain the position no matter what team you drive for..
  • My point is this Heidfeld established himself as the Lead driver at Williams. A performance that was doubly impressive when you consider that he was not even expected to be in the race team.
    For me, when Webber was put under pressure during the race, he made too may mistakes resulting in too mant race incidents.
    The argument that because Williams rate a driver it makes them a good choice is specious. Williamsd judgement has been poor over the past 5 years. They rated Pizzonia, it took them 8 years to realise that Fisher was a poor designer. For 2 years running they've been embroiled in a contract dispute with Button.
    My gut feeling with Risberg is that he's overhyped. If there was any reasoning to the FIA he should never have won the GP2 championship after his team were convicted of cheating!
  • Lead driver? Get the f*ck out of here! If he was so damn good, FW would have taken up his option, fullstop.

    I can't be arsed arguing, there's no convincing you Petrol, it's just all anti-Webber vitriol with little substance behind it.

    Knock yourself out. :rolleyes:





    [Edited on 15/12/2005 by MinardiP1]
  • FW paying a driver? hahahaha. FW is happier to see a driver leave than he is to see one come in.

    Eh let's be honest. They both had subpar years in a subpar car.
  • From the point-of-view of Williams moving up from 5th into the top 3 Rosberg is not a great choice, but someone has to bring in these young winning drivers; Sauber sure aint.

    It will be interesting to see how Heidfeld can assert himself at BMW, he may well struggle against the incumbent Villeneuve.
  • I think you can upsum where Williams will be by just looking at who they're looking to employ as test drivers.
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